The difference between them is that Bruce Jenner is legitimately mentally ill and Rachel Dolezal just wants to be black, she doesn't really believe she is black.

These pathetic cowards know it's socially acceptable to make fun of transracial but not transgender. No wonder management are happy with the direction of the show.

Gender and Sex are two different things. Sex is biology, gender is some societal thing.

Honestly, I don't know why people get so caught up in identifying themselves based on things like gender. Just be yourself. Whatever though.

Ethnicity is genetics, race is society. Same difference. It's hard to "get". It took me a while.

I fear that people only care about this because they are racists and/or people with personality disorders who get hung up on "correctness". Listening to Jimmy and Opie I was struck by the inherent racism in the whole thing. They were practically saying that she'd have to be crazy to want to be black.

Someone who identifies as transgendered is certainly different from normal, but that is not the definition of a mental illness.

The difference between the two situations is that one is definitively biological and the other is simply a person lying about their race to attain certain benefits, like being able to run a black organization.

In general, everyone understands that post-op transsexuals are not actual females, they refer to them as females out of courtesy.

How is it "definitely biological"?

Biological evidence for homosexuality is extremely well established. There are hundreds of empirical studies (not simply psychological evaluations) that provide evidence for the idea that a homosexual man is biologically distinct from both a straight man and woman, with more similarities to a woman.

You can view the studies on Pubmed, they are actually very interesting.

Trans is different than homosexuality. A trans person can be either homosexual or heterosexual.

But, from my understanding, their is physical representation for what we think mentally. So, whatever sex you are, or gender you identify with, that alone develops physical pathways in your brain even though it's psychological. But even though I'd imagine one could study the differences in brains between a homosexual & a heterosexual...I'm sure there is a shitload of variations not accounted for. Is there difference between a masculine straight woman & a feminine straight woman? A gruff strong gay man or an effeminate straight man? I'm sure it could go on & on....

The lines become completely blurred, but I think if you identify the fact that sexual orientation has a biological origin, you can then extrapolate the same ideas to transsexualism.

One example of empirical evidence below using function PET data. In short, heterosexual women and homosexual men showed increased hypothalamic activity when they smelled a number of male sex related hormones, whereas heterosexual men showed no such stimulation. There are many other studies, but this one is particularly difficult to debate.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1129091/

so then it's all a mental disorder

It's an abnormality, of course. If it causes the person to experience distress, then it can be considered a mental illness.

I have known and had conversations with a number of transsexuals, lesbians, homosexual men and the consensus seems to be that it is other people's responses to them that causes their distress. Like being bullied constantly, disowned by family etc. I think that is understandable.

Because gender is determined during development before your physical sex. Surely you've heard how everyone starts out as a girl and all that right?

Yes, people start with an X chromosome and then most likely will get another X which makes them female or a Y that makes them male. How that connects to someone with XY believing that they are suppose to be XX (or other way around) I have no idea.

This is an incorrect statement. Embryogenesis is an extremely complicated process and much of it is still poorly understood, but even after a Y chromosome is present, "male development" does not occur until a later stage in the process.

The sex determining region of the Y chromosome is suppose to modulate the process, but obviously there are an endless number of mistakes that can be made, most notably due to mutations.

The proteins produced by this region are active in many processes and regions of the body, including (surprise surprise) the brain.

So then why would there be female to male trans?

There are many different contributors and not surprisingly many different variations in how people develop.

It is a pretty simple idea, human development is extremely complicated and mistakes are common, so you have a complete gradient from 100% heterosexual to 100% homosexual, with transsexualism somewhere in between.

FTM transsexuals are a lot less common though, which makes sense based on what is known about how humans differentiate into male or females.

I dunno man why don't you research it since you're on the fucking Internet? It's not hard even you can understand it

I only know of website with facts on it so I can't find anything about it.

You know of website, how interesting

The difference between the two situations is that one is definitively biological and the other is simply a person lying about their race to attain certain benefits,

The debate is still out on whether transgenderism is biological or not. A psychiatrist from Johns Hopkins recently concluded that transgenderism resembles more of a body dysmorphic disorder rather than an inherent biological difference. Johns Hopkins was also the pioneer of gender reassignment surgery but has since stopped performing the procedure after they conducted a study and observed that many patients have a negative outcome, and that gender reassignment wasn't the optimal treatment for people who feel they are trans. The jury is still out in my personal opinion, it could be biological but it's not definitely so. Treating people who feel trans with medication and therapy might be better than indulging them and accepting their condition as something that is natural.

It is somewhat semantics. You could argue that all behaviors have a biological origin and it would be difficult to dispute it.

There was a neurosurgery patient who had a small tumor in his parietal lobe. After it was removed, he lost the ability to use tools (hammers and screwdrivers etc.), with no other deficits.

It is somewhat semantics. You could argue that all behaviors have a biological origin and it would be difficult to dispute it.

I have to disagree with this, that's why nature and nurture is a thing. I think most liberal types actually believe that nurture plays a much bigger role in behavior development than nature does. I've seen plenty of people argue that both gender and race are entirely social constructs. I think that notion is completely asinine, but I believe most people would concede that both play a role in behavioral development. The idea that every behavior can be traced back to a biological origin seems like an outdated concept.

Gender dysmorphia was considered a mental illness until 2012. The reason for changing the classification seemed to have more to do with pressure from LGBT activists and being tolerant rather than sound scientific evidence. But to be clear, I don't think you're necessarily wrong. I'm just sick of this narrative being shoved down our throats by the media that transgenderism is clearly natural occurrence when it could simply be a psychological problem. I don't think there is enough definitive evidence to reach a valid conclusion at this juncture, but it's almost taboo to entertain the possibility of transgenders being mentally because it's 'insensitive' and 'politically incorrect'. I think that outlook says more about how we view mentally ill people than it does about our acceptance of transgenders.

Of course a person's environment affects their behavior and development, however, how one responds to their environment is dependent upon their initial development.

The reason the updated DSM changed a number of definitions for psychiatric diseases is in my opinion valid. The new definitions basically just say that the conditions have to cause the person distress for them to be considered an illness. Some people attribute transsexualism itself as the cause for the depression and high suicide rates often found in the transsexual community, but fail to realize that the vast majority of transsexuals experienced a tremendous amount of abuse in school and often disownment from family members. Not to mention the daily looks, comments, laughs etc. All of which are pretty good reasons to make any person depressed.

This begs the question, is it transsexualism itself that causes distress or societies reaction to it? If a short man who fells self conscious about his height moved to a country where the average height is much lower, would he not feel better?

I think we're probably going to have to agree to disagree, but a of couple things.

Of course a person's environment affects their behavior and development, however, how one responds to their environment is dependent upon their initial development.

This is certainly true in some instances. I remember reading an article several years ago that made the argument the reason why violent criminals are the way they are is because they were abused as children. If they were never abused, that "part of their brain" would have never been "activated". However, nature and nurture are two separate things, and environment and biology are considered their own categories when discussing development in general and behavior specifically. They make the distinction for a reason, not all behaviors can exclusively be attributed to biology. I believe the two are closely intertwined, but I think you can best observe the role of nurture by comparing and contrasting learned cultural behaviors that would seem to have little to do with biology.

Some people attribute transsexualism itself as the cause for the depression and high suicide rates often found in the transsexual community, but fail to realize that the vast majority of transsexuals experienced a tremendous amount of abuse in school and often disownment from family members.

The increase prevalence of depression among transgenders isn't the only reason to believe that it is a mental health issue. I think the main argument is that it most closely resembles a body dysmotphia than anything else. I saw in several of your other comments you were trying to link homosexuality to transgenderism, that transgenderism falls in between heterosexuality and homosexuality I don't think you can necessarily make that logical leap because there are other factors with transgenders that you have to consider. Here are a few excerpts from one of the articles I posted earlier.

“This intensely felt sense of being transgendered constitutes a mental disorder in two respects. The first is that the idea of sex misalignment is simply mistaken – it does not correspond with physical reality. The second is that it can lead to grim psychological outcomes.”

The first point is much stronger than the second, because I think your claim of bullying leading to increased depression has merit. It'd be interesting to see a comparison between the depression rates of homosexuals and trans people to see if they are similar or if they deviate. However, I also believe people feeling they're supposed to be something they're not and being 'trapped' in a sense can also lead to depression.

The pro-transgender advocates do not want to know, said McHugh, that studies show between 70% and 80% of children who express transgender feelings “spontaneously lose those feelings” over time. Also, for those who had sexual reassignment surgery, most said they were “satisfied” with the operation “but their subsequent psycho-social adjustments were no better than those who didn’t have the surgery.”

I think there is a couple key points here. The majority of children losing the feelings of being the opposite sex seems to suggest that feeling transgendered isn't an inherent condition like many believe homosexuality is. I don't think there has every been a study that observed waning homosexuality inclinations at that high of a percentage. Also, if gender identity were truly the root cause of the distress these people are feeling you would think that surgery would be much more effective. I understand that most transgenders do not get the reassignment surgery, but the fact that it doesn't seem to generally improve the condition of those who do would indicate that it's an ineffective treatment. Johns Hopkins pioneered the procedure and they no longer perform it, that's a big red flag in my opinion.

“’Sex change’ is biologically impossible,” said McHugh. “People who undergo sex-reassignment surgery do not change from men to women or vice versa. Rather, they become feminized men or masculinized women. Claiming that this is civil-rights matter and encouraging surgical intervention is in reality to collaborate with and promote a mental disorder.”

No matter what these people do they will never be quite be what they want to be. Which is why I could see treating transgenderism as more of a body dysmorphia could be more effective than what they're doing now. Instead of preaching societal acceptance maybe encouraging self acceptance and realistic expectations would be more beneficial to trans individuals in the long run. Some view accepting their trans identity as acceptance, but they're denying their actual gender identity.

So in short, the increased likelihood of depression isn't the only reason to think that it could be a mental illness. I think they should do a more comprehensive study analyzing the effectiveness of indulging the condition and combating it with psychological treatments to see which one is more effective. Until then, I don't think you can say definitively one way or the other. And again, I'm not arguing that it is a mental illness, there are just reasons why I'm skeptical that transgenderism is an inherent condition like homosexuality.

The connectivity of neural networks in your brain are changing from the smallest increment of time to the next due to your interactions with the environment, including your interactions with me now. Biology and environment are intimately linked, a fact that is often underestimated because people fail to recognize that other people are the biggest contributors to one's environment.

There are most definitely transsexuals who could be classified as mentally ill, but they really seem to be a small minority and their existence doesn't prove that transsexualism is a mental illness.

It is obviously a very complicated issue, like most human behaviors, so who really knows what the best solution is. I certainly know that psychiatric treatment for most mental disorders is fairly ineffective. As things stand now, as corny as it sounds, I think people should simply try to be understanding of other people's situations and realize that everyone is a victim of circumstances, especially when said other people are not affecting you in any serious way.

Biology and environment are intimately linked, a fact that is often underestimated because people fail to recognize that other people are the biggest contributors to one's environment.

Environment can influence biology in many circumstances, which is why we developed differently than neanderthals and Ethiopians and Kenyans are generally the best long distance runners. It also has been observed that feral children develop different behaviors than 'normal' children because of their environments. I'm not denying that the two are intertwined, but there is certainly an argument to be made for the influence of nurture and learned behaviors independent of what is heritable.

There are most definitely transsexuals who could be classified as mentally ill, but they really seem to be a small minority and their existence doesn't prove that transsexualism is a mental illness.

It's one study that only involved children, but the overwhelming majority would seem to suggest the opposite.

The pro-transgender advocates do not want to know, said McHugh, that studies show between 70% and 80% of children who express transgender feelings “spontaneously lose those feelings” over time.

so who really knows what the best solution is.

I would argue no one does at this point, which is why I personally believe we should be accepting any answer as 'definitive' without examination.

As things stand now, as corny as it sounds, I think people should simply try to be understanding of other people's situations and realize that everyone is a victim of circumstances, especially when said other people are not affecting you in any serious way.

Gender reassignment looks like it's an ineffective treatment. If indulging trans people isn't as effective as psychological treatment we are doing them a disservice by not treating them properly. I'm not accepting one or the other, but I feel we are too willingly to accept the easy answer in order to be 'tolerant' rather than analyzing the problem. Like I said, I would be interested to see them do a comprehensive study in order to see which treatment plan is more effective so trans people can receive appropriate care.

Good discussion though, I like the sentiment of your final statement. I'm not trying to be unsympathetic if it came off that way, I just want optimal treatment plans.

Yes, good discussion. Far too civil for an O&A forum. :)

They criticized the media for all having the same reaction to Caitlyn. Over and over again. it was the only thing they talked about for a few shows. and Opie suggested they put together a compilation of everyone saying the same thing.
Opie wasn't bold enough to say anything against Caitlyn/bruce but he was able to say ehhh its gonna take him a minute to warm up to it

what show are you even listening to

Define mental illness. Is dyeing your hair mental illness (just an example)?

Also, Rachel chick is a liar. I doubt "Caitlyn" has ever publicly lied about his/her past.

Otherwise you're kinda right.

Mental Illness (noun): Any of various conditions characterized by impairment of an individual's normal cognitive, emotional, or behavioral functioning, and caused by social, psychological, biochemical, genetic, or other factors, such as infection or head trauma. Also called emotional illness, mental disease, mental disorder.

Mental Illness (noun): The property of being mentally ill; mental disorders taken as a whole.

Mental Illness (noun): A mental disorder.

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Want to learn how to use me? [Read this post].}

Fuck.

Define cum.

Cum (preposition): Together with; plus. Often used in combination: our attic-cum-studio.

Cum (noun): Vulgar Slang Variant of come.

Cum (preposition): Used in indicating a thing with two roles, functions, or natures, or a thing that has changed from one to another.

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Want to learn how to use me? [Read this post].}

Define Jelly Tits

Jelly Tits (noun): A talent-less, cunt-faced, liar. An over paid button pusher who stands in the way of jokes among friends due to ego.

Jelly Tits (noun): A crying, coffee-sipping, zilch. A supple-breasted praying mantis well versed in the art of manipulation and back stabbing: used to undermine co-workers and alienate staff all to gain favor from management to receive top billing on a shit radio show.

Ol' Jelly Tits is stuttering through another read and cutting off laughter again.

Attic-cum-studio

She thought she was black? This whole time I thought she was just exploiting her appearance to pretend to be black. But I don't know.

Whenever the whole trans stuff comes up though, it does always go back to me wondering if the people that support trans folks would support people saying "I'm black on the inside" or if they'd call them a racist for thinking they could just say they're black without understanding the truth of what that entails.

Someone smart could answer that question for me. Nobody here though.

They're both mentally ill. Jenner is harmless, but Dolezal is clearly a sociopath.

Despite being a mental illness, many studies show that at this time it's the best thing you can do for these people. For a lot of these people, the changes they take end up having a net positive effect on their mental state.

I get that it's a mental illness, and they'll obviously never truly be a guy, but can you at least admit there are some things in society that contribute to this mental illness? It's pretty clear that men and women are treated differently in western culture, not that I think it's necessarily bad thing, or that one side gets it worse than the other.

Pretty clearly you can have guys that identity more with women and visa versa. Because of these differences something called 'gender dysphoria' is created, and is not something that will go away unless men and women are exactly the same in all aspects, and treated the same by both genders. This being entirely unrealistic at the moment, I don't see any problem with men deciding they want to wear womens clothes. The difference between the two things you're talking about is that gender dysphoria is a real thing, and it happens because men and women are treated completely differently only based on appearance. The only reason you'd want your skin color to change is so that you'd be accepted in certain neighborhoods, and be a scary presence in others.

you're a dummy. just stop.

Thanks for the update and dissertation, Dr. Mr. Brightside23.

Worm said today "where is Sharpton in all this?"

Not Opie,The Worm said this.

Whether who is worse, the insanity is the people that are so pro-Trans & so anti-Rachel Dolezal.

Let's be honest- I try to be open minded. But I am taking a big "leap of faith" to take the "trans community" at their word. The whole "actually, they've done research & a trans brain actually has more similarities of the brain of the sex they identify with so it is actually a brain in the wrong body!" Yea, ok. Whatever. Sounds like ridiculous bullshit to me, but have your fairy tale.

But then, the same people act like this woman is insane. She seems just as crazy as the trans people. Just one group has an established talking points to defend themselves.

My belief is, for whatever reason, trans people got an idea in their head they are born in the wrong body and it grows & consumes them til they identify with something they aren't. So if it can happen with sex, why can't it happen with race? Makes the same amount of sense to me.

I read a huffpo article saying "these tweets explain why Rachel is wrong". One of them was that it's the epitome of white privilege that she can not be black whenever she wants. So how is the same not true for men living as women. Anytime Bruce wants, even with the surgeries, can go back to being a man. It's the same

Lmao I don't understand how non-children end up thinking like this

I think it's easier to understand that someone who's gay, and just wants to be a woman and suck cock, can "turn" into a woman.. But you can't wake up and feel 'black' or be 'black'... At least I don't think you can.

Bruce was a 'mo his whole life, and now that the world is more 'accepting' he's come out about it.

Bruce doesn't want to sleep with men, he's still attracted to women exclusively.

Wow didn't know that part of the story, OK, then bruce is just fucking insane as well.

edit: wow got this psycho from another subreddit following all my comments and down thumbing them, any way to block people on this site?

Maybe you're wrong about both conclusions you jumped to there.

Wrong. Rachels known she was white since she was a kid, she changed specifically to feel like a victim. Bruce waited in shame until he was in his 60's while Rachel used scholarship money and secured a job.

Acting that you’re a different gender, is 100% more crazy then acting like a different race. Sorry Dr. Norton, but the only medical reasoning

There are some medically supporting evidence for why gender might be an issue to 1 out of x people, Yes, mental illness...as it relates to hormones. There's no such equivalent for race. Stop acting like you know what you're talking about retard. Fuck off, you just hate trannys and are reaching for a reason to hate on Jim.

[deleted]

Mental Illness (noun): Any of various conditions characterized by impairment of an individual's normal cognitive, emotional, or behavioral functioning, and caused by social, psychological, biochemical, genetic, or other factors, such as infection or head trauma. Also called emotional illness, mental disease, mental disorder.

Mental Illness (noun): The property of being mentally ill; mental disorders taken as a whole.

Mental Illness (noun): A mental disorder.

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Want to learn how to use me? [Read this post].}

How is it "definitely biological"?

The difference between the two situations is that one is definitively biological and the other is simply a person lying about their race to attain certain benefits,

The debate is still out on whether transgenderism is biological or not. A psychiatrist from Johns Hopkins recently concluded that transgenderism resembles more of a body dysmorphic disorder rather than an inherent biological difference. Johns Hopkins was also the pioneer of gender reassignment surgery but has since stopped performing the procedure after they conducted a study and observed that many patients have a negative outcome, and that gender reassignment wasn't the optimal treatment for people who feel they are trans. The jury is still out in my personal opinion, it could be biological but it's not definitely so. Treating people who feel trans with medication and therapy might be better than indulging them and accepting their condition as something that is natural.