Opie's sudoku (done during this break)

That's actually really funny.

So does Hagar just reuse that same joke once every week?

Awesome. But they still use fucking discs?

Probably stupid SXM's setup.

Anyone else feel that Ant's race stories have become Fez's 'get stories? Enough already.

yes, let's all listen to two high school drop outs debate today's political issues!!! yawn

and here I thought opie was going to win today's dumbest comment for:

"tiger implemented himself in a press conference"

Hey they get on red eye. They must be informed.

They also spend hours a day talking about current events when not doing interviews or generally goofing around. I wouldn't call them experts on most things, but they are at least more informed than any regular joe.

What the hay do I know, get me a container of coffee and show up to work on time

Fuck you regular Joe.

Hey I leave that to all the politicians and head muckity mucks, am I right or am I right?

That's debatable.

But don't you want to hear about how good it would be for the US military to withdraw from East Asia? Stability be damned I say!

It's WAAAY better than anything on CNN, MSNBC, or FNC. Also they use language people use and not PC bullshit. Being a high school dropout doesn't make you a dumbass, I know plenty of retard college grads. I think Anthony's race rants can be some of the best parts of the show, even if I disagree. The only bad part is when he starts repeating himself within the same argument which is why even I thought this argument got annoying. The music breaks and the "company hates us" rants suck the most, if the company won't let you do shit why not take $100k off of you're contract in exchange for more 'freedom'?

It's weird that Ant is more wise than any of you ignorant know-it-alls

They got their GED's and spent 10 minutes at a community college. They are sooooo much smarter and more evolved maaaaaaannnnnn.

Since when is going to college a prerequisite for having a valid and informed opinion?

I was being sarcastic.

my apologies sir

Yeah, unlike you and your liberal arts degree, right?

This is all I heard my morning ride in. My commute is 25 minutes. When the argument hit the 20 minute mark and they had repeated themselves 3 times already I had to turn the channel. They were going in absolute circles.

First time I've ever changed the channel on the guys.

Oh well, I'll on demand the rest of the show later today.

That's the first time?! I have to do it at least once a week

Me too. Especially when Opie starts complaining about how the company keeps fucking them over or Ant goes on a racist rant - I'm out at that point.

"We were almost famous"

Think ill sit this one out...

Jimmy sounded like a complete idiot on this one.

What a lot of people seem to miss is that Zimmerman didn't act suspicious at all that night. He called the cops before trying to confront Trayvon, he had wounds consistent with getting his head slammed into cement, and he fully cooperated with police afterwards. He's either telling the truth or he is one hell of a mastermind. But Jimmy also calls him stupid. Is he a criminal mastermind or is he an idiot? You can't have it both ways.

According to Jimmy anyone that volunteers for a neighborhood watch in a community that has had recent break ins happening is a faggot, pussy cop wannabe tough guy. Maybe Jimmy has never lived in a shitty area where you can't rely on the cops to show up in a timely manner, or make their prescence known to curtail break ins, so having a member of the neighborhood driving around at night actually helps stop shitheads from fucking with other peoples things. We had a neighborhood watch guy here that was an old retired guy that stuck signs on his own car and drove around my condo complex at night to keep the poor people from section 8 down the street out of our nice new complex. What a faggot wannabe cop douchebag that guy was.

But maybe Zimmerman was overly aggressive first which provoked Trayvon.

That's total speculation.

Yes, it is. That's exactly why this case is so tough, we don't have a lot of info. Only two people saw what happened, one of them is dead, the other's information is all we're going on aside from physical evidence.

Only two people saw what happened, one of them is dead, the other's information is all we're going on aside from physical evidence.

I agree and that evidence was sufficient enough for Zimmerman to be released the night of the incident. No new evidence has come out to change that. The only reason he's even going to trial is because of political and racial backlash leading to overzealous prosecutors using this as an opportunity to make a name.

This is the part of it that everyone ignores blindly for the sake of arguing their one sided point. It's like a reverse version of the Chappelle show bit about how you shouldn't select a black guy for trials with black defendants, and he sits on the stand and blatantly ignores facts in an obnoxious way.

Zimmerman defenders treat Zimmerman as the most truthful man who's ever lived. We are all fans of a radio show that regularly talks about lying to cover your tracks in relationships while cheating, these are all people who worship Ant who lies about how high his drone flew that day so he doesn't get in trouble for disrupting commercial air space, but the concept that Zimmerman might slightly lie to make himself seem more innocent is this foreign concept and to even entertain that notion makes you a retard.

Common sense gets thrown out the window to defend Zimmerman.

Good point.

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That was his job. How is it nutty to do your job? Do you expect someone hired to be a watchman to nap in their car all night?

Really? I liked his point. Zim should have thought all possibilities before starting a situation (following someone is starting something). He was ill prepared when something did happen.

That said, the Prosecution in this case is out of their fucking minds charging him with second degree murder.

There is no point in debating this on here, it's impossible. I'm just saying Jimmy sounded stupid, he contradicted himself like 4 times.

I heard (paraphrased) "He had a gun, he should have won!" and as much as I love the lil fella, in that moment I really wanted to punch him. Hard. It's a ridiculous sentiment on multiple levels.

It seems like he expected Zimmerman to be running around waving his pistol in the air like Yosemite Sam

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Jimmy says Zimmerman was ABSOLUTLEY WRONG with his profiling, Trayvon turned out not to have a weapon and wasn't out looking to do any crime. 5 minutes later, he says I'm for profiling, I do it, everybody should. If I see someone that looks suspicious I'm going to be on edge.

Profiling is only wrong if it turns out the person you were worried about turned out in the end to not be up to no good. Excellent point Jim.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand cue the cluster fuck

i kept thinking about Jimmy following the bus. the bus, jimmy following it..

What an exhausting debate.

Thanks - I now know to skip forward 68 minutes when I listen to the download of it later today.

It actually goes from about 1:35-2:35 if you want the actual time that you need to skip. Its pretty much a straight hour.

This shit is getting so old. If i wanted mediocre fox news discourse I would watch Fox News.

Boys are lazy as shit these days.

Thanks for that - I should be getting around to listening to it today and will keep an eye our for the 1:35 mark.

I agree, it is getting old. I've only been listening to the show for a year (came over from Howard), and I genuinely enjoy 95% of it, but Ant's prolonged rants are just tedious. Thankfully I listen to mp3s so I can skip them, but if I was listening live I'd be pretty annoyed.

I'd still rather listen to 10 hours of Ant and Nordin going round and round on this topic than listen to one second of MSNBC or Fox or NBC or CNN or Piers Morgan or young turks talk about this.

i'm glad anthony did't let jimmy get away with his bullshit this time. jimmy really sounded uneducated on the topic and anthony made a lot of sence. at first jimmy was saying zimmerman had a gun, he should have shown it to travon. he clearly doesnt understand gun laws or responsible gun ownership. jim is always talking himself in circles.

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He was on watch. That was his job. He wasn't hired to nap in his car all night.

He could have watched from the car. If he never got out of the car to follow Treyvon this would never have happened.

From my understanding this apartment complex had many pedestrian paths in the center between buildings that would have not been visible from the outer roads. Watching from the car would have been pointless.

The cops were already on their way at that point. You YOURSELF suggest that if Trayvon felt threatened, he should have hid, called the cops, and waited.

With blatant double standards, you often find yourself on a...

puts on shades

Slippery slope.

YEEAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

You YOURSELF suggest that if Trayvon felt threatened, he should have hid, called the cops, and waited.

He didn't though.

You're missing the point. Why does that suggestion not apply to Zimmerman, who already had vocal confirmation that police were on their way and were totally aware of the situation?

Well if you believe his story (which you clearly don't and is why this will go nowhere) all he did was walk out into the middle of the complex (where he couldn't drive to) and shine his flashlight around when he was blind sided by Martin. Walking into that area was not an invitation for assault nor was it a reckless move.

All I need to know about his story to take issue with it is the part I've heard with my very own ears. I think Zimmerman was well within his rights and doing the right thing to begin with, but then it becomes personal. "These assholes always get away."

When Trayvon ran, he gets out of the car and starts chasing. You can hear the wind increasing noticeably into the phone receiver, you can hear Zimmerman's breath become shorter as he's following. He was pursuing someone. That's not what neighborhood WATCH does. It's called WATCH because you watch and then alert the authorities, it's not called neighborhood pursuit. This isn't even a debate. It's just the facts vs. people who want to stand up for Zimmerman willingly bending the well known concept of what neighborhood watch is or does.

The fact that you're not even honest enough to admit that really bums me out. We can disagree about Trayvon, we can disagree about how the shooting went down in the moment, but you have to have the common sense to know that he wasn't supposed to follow after the person. He had done his duties perfectly by alerting the police, and all he had to do was wait.

If he had witnessed Trayvon breaking into a window or something, I could maybe even give him the benefit of the doubt of wanting to keep an eye on the kid from afar, but all he had seen was the person acting suspicious, and all he had to do was wait for the police. At that point, Trayvon had done literally nothing wrong there. Zimmerman just assumed he was a criminal and treated him as such, and then he killed a kid for, as you said, being a knucklehead, because apparently that's punishable by death.

Weenus I honestly don't see how you can have the opinion you have. What are you arguing here?? Trayvon attacked him, He defended himself. There's not argument that can make it past the fact that Trayvon was actively bashing his skull into the cement before a bullet stopped him. I don't think you are stupid, just naive and misguided.

He wouldn't have gotten attacked if he didn't go against common neighborhood watch protocols of watching and reporting from safety. The fact that Trayvon even touched him is proof of the concept that neighborhood watch is supposed to remain in safety and report to the police. They are the police's eyes and ears, they're not security guards.

When Trayvon ran, he gets out of the car and starts chasing. You can hear the wind increasing noticeably into the phone receiver, you can hear Zimmerman's breath become shorter as he's following. He was pursuing someone. That's not what neighborhood WATCH does. It's called WATCH because you watch and then alert the authorities, it's not called neighborhood pursuit. This isn't even a debate. It's just the facts vs. people who want to stand up for Zimmerman willingly bending the well known concept of what neighborhood watch is or does.

I don't care if Zimmerman was doing fucking backflips. He didn't break the law.

The fact that you're not even honest enough to admit that really bums me out.

Grow up. Spare me the emotional nonsense.

you have to have the common sense to know that he wasn't supposed to follow after the person.

Who cares? That's not illegal nor an invitation to be attacked.

If he had witnessed Trayvon breaking into a window or something, I could maybe even give him the benefit of the doubt of wanting to keep an eye on the kid from afar, but all he had seen was the person acting suspicious, and all he had to do was wait for the police. At that point, Trayvon had done literally nothing wrong there. Zimmerman just assumed he was a criminal and treated him as such, and then he killed a kid for, as you said, being a knucklehead, because apparently that's punishable by death.

Dude, Trayvon was the one who escalated the situation to violence. Zimmerman shot him as a last resort. It's unfortunate but it's not Zimmerman's fault Martin attacked him. That's the crux of the entire debate. Asking someone questions and keeping an eye on them from a distance is nothing compared to physical aggression. Trayvon brought the death on himself. If you were in the same situation of having your head slammed into the ground from some guy you didn't know you would do the exact same thing. If not you would not only be a fool, you would probably be a dead fool.

It's hilarious how you continue to insist that Zimmerman did nothing illegal when this all happened because he profiled someone as a criminal who had done nothing illegal until Zimmerman began pursuing him. You just assume the guy who ended up murdering an unarmed teenager that wasn't doing anything illegal at the time is telling the truth when he's literally the only first hand account of the situation, as if he would just throw his hands up and say, "Yeah, that was totally my bad, lock me up and throw away the key for murdering a minor!". This is a guy who resisted arrest before, but why would he lie to spare himself a long stay in prison, right?

In regards to this situation, I wish Trayvon never confronted Zimmerman. I wish Zimmerman never left his car. I certainly wish he never followed the kid after Trayvon clearly fled in fear, pushing the issue, but both parties did retarded things all along the way of this situation, the problem is, people are only willing to view one side's actions as wrong or dumb, and that's never going to fix anything. They both escalated the situation in a number of ways, I just can't stand to watch people gleefully defend a man's multiple decisions that could have entirely avoided a kid's death and the vilification of himself in the process. Ultimately, it comes down to the adult and the man who holds a rank in a responsible organization to make a responsible decision and set an example for a youth, not the other way around.

Our disagreement on this however is clearly an impasse we'll never get beyond. Enjoy the show, have a good one.

Okay let me ask you some questions.

What laws did Zimmerman break?

What do you think happened in the run up to Trayvon's death?

What facts do you believe corroborate your theory?

If Zimmerman intended to kill Trayvon, what was his motive?

If Zimmerman intended to kill Trayvon, why did he cooperate with the police after the incident?

Why would I give you the respect of answering your questions if you don't return that? Fuck you. We're done.

I feel like I've been answering your questions the whole time. I think it's very clear where I stand on this case. I'm just trying to get a better idea of exactly where you stand. Sorry if I came off as disrespectful anywhere.

Well then I take back the fuck you part.

My stance is this. I think Trayvon was as you said, a knucklehead. I knew plenty of aggressive dummies growing up who solved things with their fists but that really didn't make them criminals and they didn't deserve to die. When you're a kid, you scrap with each other, it happens. If Zimmerman was a teen, it would have been a scrap and that would have been it.

I think Zimmerman felt victimized by the recent crime in the area and had a chip (wass dat) on his shoulder well before he left the car. You can hear him plain as day on the 9/11 call say "these assholes always get away". He had already decided that Trayvon was an asshole and that he had done something illegal and was going to get away with it.

I don't take issue with Zimmerman calling the cops, but at the point that he called, he knew cops were coming shortly, and even if Trayvon disappeared out of view, trained professional law enforcement officers were on their way and they would be able to find Trayvon if he were still in the complex doing something illegal, or Zimmerman had successfully chased off a would be criminal. Getting out of his vehicle to pursue was a needless escalation at that point because cops were already being dispatched.

There is now a black out period that has no account other than Zimmerman's first hand account. No witnesses saw what happened between the 9/11 call and the scuffle. They don't know if Zimmerman and Trayvon had words before Zimmerman returned to his vehicle, they don't know how Zimmerman was acting, how he was following, nothing.

Now, you and I seem to really disagree on the concept that Zimmerman might lie like a normal human being to make himself seem more innocent or in the right.

There's a very common saying or concept about two sides to EVERY story. You take Zimmerman's side as fact. I take it as one side to a two sided story. I think with Zimmerman's clear personal interest in Trayvon, his feeling that justice would not get served if he didn't act, and his desire to be an authority figure and his position as such in the Neighborhood Watch, it's not crazy to think Zimmerman had addressed Trayvon or acted in a way that threatened Trayvon. I think Trayvon then reacted poorly by trying to fight Zimmerman.

My issue is that I don't think Zimmerman was free of blame. I think he should be held responsible for doing his part to escalate this situation needlessly. The same as Trayvon should be held responsible in our eyes for escalating the situation physically, Zimmerman escalated the situation by leaving his vehicle and by following Trayvon after he fled. Trayvon's attack on him was a direct reaction to those two things, and those are areas where Zimmerman, as the adult in the situation, as the Neighborhood Watch captain, could have acted responsibly and in effect, saved two lives.

Beyond simply looking at this as some kind of technicality pissing contest about who acted illegally in the first place, I'm looking at specific blatant areas where Zimmerman had acted outside of the very common and well known practices of the Neighborhood Watch to watch and report, not become involved, and looking at his personal annoyance with a suspect walking around that clearly motivated him to do those things as moments where he acted irresponsibly and led to two lives being ruined.

On my more personal stance about the debates on the subject, I take issue with the arguments that Zimmerman did nothing illegal, because they're happening because Zimmerman profiled someone as a criminal who up until their conflict with each other, had done nothing illegal. Trayvon didn't steal the candy or the drink, he went to a corner store and bought a snack like an every day citizen, and we just take Zimmerman's word that he was walking around acting suspiciously, and I take issue with the only account of this coming from someone who has a vested interest in being innocent and justified.

If Zimmerman didn't have a history of resisting arrest, I wouldn't be so quick to assume he might flex a story to make himself look justified or innocent, or leave out comments he and Trayvon may have had with each other prior to the confrontation by the sidewalk. If a third party were to PM us and ask us about our conversation on this very thread, we're going to have slight differences to our stories almost subconsciously to paint ourselves as the sympathetic parties, and people's blind willingness to believe Zimmerman's word as a fact of god is really flat out insane. I would be curious to know if people who think Zimmerman is telling the entire truth word for word, second by second of that night think OJ Simpson was telling the truth when he was under oath on the stand.

Thanks for the great response. I won't reply to each of your points because we just have two different outlooks on this case and we've already beaten this dead horse enough.

I will however laugh about the equation to the OJ case. This is nothing like the OJ case. OJ was an hour late for a limo at the time of the murders, blood was found on his vehicle, and he tried to flee instead of turning himself in. Nobody who actually studied that case thinks OJ didn't do it. At best they think the evidence wasn't sufficient to get a conviction. Hell, he wrote a fucking book about how he did it (Oh I'm sorry "as if" he did it).

For the record I think OJ did it as well, I'm just illustrating the example that being under oath doesn't mean someone is telling the whole truth. That was the only point I was making there, but, I'd prefer to just agree to disagree on this subject because I do consider O&A fans to be my people and usually, I'm a fan of your posts. Just don't pursue me and shoot me.

But he had to follow, There were break-ins recently and it was his JOB.

I can't believe that people feel that following someone at night (as part of a neighborhood watch) and then turning and returning to your vehicle (in the opposite direction) justifies someone physically assaulting you.

Martin could have run away, called the cops, etc... Zimmerman made no attempt to physically restrain him.

The moment Martin blindsided Zimmerman and was pummeling him on the ground (if Zimmerman was telling the truth) ALL of what happened prior does not matter.

He was the one who escalated to to a physical confrontation, and under Florida law, Zimmerman would have the right to shoot if he feared for his life.

Getting one's head slammed into the concrete being just such an occasion to fire...

Martin could have called the cops, kept walking, ran away, etc... he didn't. He acted out of anger, misplaced or not, and he paid for it with his life.

That's a good point. We know for a fact that Martin had his cell phone on him. Why not call the cops? I suspect he hid before attacking Zimmerman. Why not just remain hidden?

Let's be real. Trayvon was a knucklehead. Most guys are at 17. If you learn about him you can easily uncover that he probably didn't have any respect for authority and was likely a petty criminal.

As someone who had guns pointed in my face in nicer neighborhoods (rich wigger and suburbian thug kids, most dangerous thing on the planet because they have resources and little to no life experience to teach them consequences of their actions), I can tell you that ducking away and calling the cops would have accomplished literally nothing regarding the confrontation, except an awkward conversation with a police office 25 minutes later where I explain to him how a rich kid brandished a gun in my face.

Not to say that turning around to confront that person fixed anything either, that was dumb as well, but the alternative wasn't much of an alternative.

The best part you point out is that he was a 17 year old knucklehead. I know a lot of productive members of society these days that were basically goons as teenagers, if they thought someone was beefing with them they would have turned around to fight about it. Few of those people would have expected to be shot during that stuff though. As a teen guy in high school, fighting is some retarded badge of courage, honor and strength. If you avoid a fight, more often than not you'll be ridiculed by your peers if not outright bullied for it, so it doesn't really surprise me that some goofball kid tried to be a tough guy and start a confrontation because he felt threatened, and people who act like that is totally unheard of have clearly forgot what people were like at 17 or they went to schools I'm envious of.

Any time someone has followed me, even inadvertently, my feathers ruffle a bit. From taking the bus to and from work years ago, having an iPod when they were still a new thing, I always made myself very aware of footsteps behind and around me, especially when they seemed to be following me around.

If I think someone is following me, it's going to put me on edge, it's going to make me very suspicious of that person and feel extremely threatened by that person. I think that, and the fact that Zimmerman was told specifically by law enforcement to remain in his car which he decided against due to his own personal beliefs and vendettas, need to be taken into account.

It's a shitty situation for both parties but Zimmerman most definitely escalated the situation, and while his motives may have been for good, there needs to be responsibility admitted and taken in his part in simply escalating the situation.

Couldn't disagree more.

The bottom line is, nothing Zimmerman did was illegal prior to the shooting.

The case boils down to the circumstances of the shooting being justifiable as self defense or not.

The 911 operator does not matter. Legally they can not tell you not to follow someone. 911 operators are not police officers on the scene. If you listen to it the response from the operator was along the lines of "we don't need you to follow him". That, from a legal standpoint, is not an order or suggestion you have follow.

What matters is if the kid struck Zimmerman and knocked him to the ground and proceeded to hit him repeatedly causing him to fear for his own life, as he has claimed, or not. THAT is all that matters. Prior to that is all inconsequential.

Zimmerman has said he made NO attempt to physically restrain Martin. He followed and observed him while on the phone with police. He then turned around to get in his truck, walking AWAY from Martin and was assaulted leading to him firing in self defense as he claimed his head was being repeatedly struck against the pavement.

IF all of that is true, the blame is on Martin, not Zimmerman. Martin could have called the cops. He could have taken off running or calmly walked back to and entered his dad's house (where he was headed). Feeling on edge does not excuse assaulting a man you think is following you.

Legally speaking, if he struck first, his act of physically aggression is where the first crime of this timeline occurred.

Dozens of people call police and tail someone until they arrive on he scene daily be it drunk drivers, shoplifters, etc...

If he assaulted Zimmerman and not the other way around, he's the one who started the physical confrontation that sadly led to his own death and that responsibility lies solely with him. Zimmerman calling the cops on him and keeping an eye on him until the cops arrived would not have led to anything but the police speaking to the kid had he not struck Zimmerman in the time frame between the call and the shooting.

If they can't prove Zimmerman's story to be false, prove that he didn't fear for his life, then he will get acquitted, and, assuming he is telling the truth, he should.

I can't take a single word of your post seriously when you say Trayvon should have called the cops and waited when you don't think that Zimmerman should have waited after calling the cops. It's such a blatant double standard it literally gives me a headache. Sorry, no offense to you personally but that's just the dumbest crap.

Martin attempted to run away. He tried to remove himself from the situation but Zimmerman pursued him. Listen to the 9-11 call, he says "oh crap he's running."

Why am I supposed to feel sympathy for or acknowledge the fact that Zimmerman was 'walking away to his truck' when Trayvon fleeing from Zimmerman is only used as a sign of criminal intent? Do you understand what my point is here?

So I don't understand. If he runs, he's a criminal. If he stands and confronts him, he's a criminal. People who defend Zimmerman give Trayvon no parameters for success in the situation outside of "act guilty until proven innocent" and they give Zimmerman the benefit of the doubt in a number of situations where he could have entirely avoided the situation. The double standards are just insane and the only thing crazier is that people are not honest enough to admit it.

can't take a single word of your post seriously when you say Trayvon should have called the cops and waited when you don't think that Zimmerman should have waited after calling the cops.

If the alternative is ASSAULTING someone, yes. Keep walking and call the cops, not your girlfriend, as you do so. Not stopping and waiting, but walking and dialing.

He was able to call and have a dialog with his girlfriend while this happened, Zimmerman didn't try to get him off the phone or physically stop him. He simply followed him. Trayvon could have very easily called the cops. He would have been in the right to call them and say "some creep is following me". He didn't.

As for running or not, it is about avoiding physical conflict. No cop is going to arrest you for running from neighborhood watch. You are right, it isn't a crime. Looking more guilty to a guy like Zimmerman doesn't matter in the moment. It's about smartly avoiding a conflict against an unknown man.

IF he ran and got shot in the back, Zimmerman would have been absolutely guilty of a crime.

If he ran and they got into a physical confrontation because Zimmerman was physically trying to restrain him from doing so, He'd legally be within his right to try to physically free himself through punches, kicks, etc... If that confrontation led to his death, Zimmerman should be prosecuted.

To turn and charge towards him and escalate it to a violent confrontation, regardless of how he felt, was the WORST possible decision he could have made practically and legally. It was a crime. The first one that occurred that night. Everything prior, while not always nice, was LEGAL.

If someone, under Florida law, is physically assaulting you and you feel your life is threatened (again, head being slammed off of pavement), you are permitted to shoot them in self-defense.

If the events that evening took place as Zimmerman describes them, he will walk....

I just don't know why people pretend that they never knew a 17 year old who would try to knuckle up if they felt threatened by someone, or why they would think that those 17 year old's they knew who were goons like that deserved to be shot and killed because of it.

The most alarming thing about the debate about this situation is the realization that apparently, the fist fights I had seen growing up in four different states on the east and west coast were all perpetrated by horrible criminals who deserved to be executed. I never knew!

I'm not trying to say Trayvon is right to have attacked the guy, but I knew dozens of kids of all races and classes that scrapped as teens. I once got beat up in 9th grade because my best friend fingerbanged someone's girlfriend, little did I know that the guys who jumped me could be punished with death for what I considered to just be the shitty reality that kids are assholes and maturity comes over time.

I'm Zimmerman's age, and I truly believe if you put me nose to nose with a 17 year old in a situation, I'd be the one expected to make the mature and responsible decision before the 17 year old would. I know and agree that we should hold kids to a higher standard, but as the adult, in virtually every situation, the public will expect me to be more mature and more responsible, and for some reason in this specific situation, people don't really seem to agree with that. They hold Trayvon and Zimmerman to be equals, and don't take into account that one might have been a dumb kid and one should have been acting like an adult. That's really my main issue.

I'm not trying to say Trayvon is right to have attacked the guy, but I knew dozens of kids of all races and classes that scrapped as teens.

He wasn't. Period. We've all done shit as kids that was illegal, be it fistfights or whatever. The risk you take in starting a fight with someone you don't know is they may have and use a weapon on their person to defend themselves.

I once got beat up in 9th grade because my best friend fingerbanged someone's girlfriend, little did I know that the guys who jumped me could be punished with death for what I considered to just be the shitty reality that kids are assholes and maturity comes over time.

Again, shooting in self defense is not the same as punishing the crime of assault with a death sentence. If you feared for your life (him sitting on your chest slamming your head off the ground repeatedly, as was alleged by Zimmerman) as they beat the shit out of you (people can be beaten to death) you'd have been justified in using whatever force you deemed you needed to to defend yourself as well.

I'm Zimmerman's age, and I truly believe if you put me nose to nose with a 17 year old in a situation, I'd be the one expected to make the mature and responsible decision before the 17 year old would.

So if someone jumps you without warning, with no clue to age, or what they may be capable of, and is slamming your head into the ground you aren't going use a gun if you have one?

Trayvon wasn't tiny, he was almost 6ft tall and around 160 lbs.

Someone is on top of you slamming your head into the ground repeatedly and you are going to take the time to ponder teenage rage or not before you decide to use your gun to defend yourself? Before one of those shots to your head causes you to lose consciousness all together?

Good luck with that my friend....

I would have never have left the car to put myself in that dangerous situation. Especially if I was as convinced it was a criminal as Zimmerman was. He basically threw caution and common sense to the side for some reason, and I truly believe that reason is because he knew that he had a deadly weapon on his person.

Leaving his car, even when the dispatcher politely told him they didn't need his civilian gumshoeing beyond that point, was stupid, and it directly led to a teenager's death, and Zimmerman's life being changed forever, irrefutably for the worse. Even if he's seen as innocent, his life has changed forever, and that's because he left his vehicle. He did his duty as a neighborhood watchman by the standard of every single neighborhood watch manual I can find, (and still to this minute, you guys have yet to provide me with a manual that doesn't stress remaining in the safety of a home or vehicle and waiting for the police to arrive) and he stepped outside of that duty and put himself in harms way, escalating this situation. Had he remained in his vehicle, police would have likely grabbed Trayvon, questioned him, saw he was carrying snacks and not burglary tools or a lethal weapon, and sent him on his way. Zimmerman would still be protecting his family and neighborhood with a vigilante eye.

I really just think Zimmerman was on that Paul Kersey trip.

It's hard to be a mature Adult when you are getting your head slammed on the pavement by a physically overpowering young person.

This is to assume that Zimmerman's story where he got out of his car, looked around with the cartoonish 'hand over the brow looking for ships on the horizon' pose and then Trayvon jumped him. I personally believe more happened between the two than Zimmerman has let one, maybe a comment or two, nothing huge but more than he let on. "These assholes always get away", guilty until proven innocent to Zimmerman, but he got out of his car, said nothing, and got jumped? More to this story, it's obvious.

It blows my mind that people are pretending the neighborhood watch doesn't universally stress making sure you are safe more than you making sure a POTENTIAL CRIMINAL doesn't leave your eye sight. Neighborhood watch across the US is made up of normal people, not wanna-be Dirty Harry's. They don't want you following suspects on foot. I promise you.

and the fact that Zimmerman was told specifically by law enforcement to remain in his car

That is a lie. He was told "we don't need you to do that" by the dispatcher (who is not law enforcement by the way) after he said he was going to pursue the individual.

You have to be going so far out of your way to pretend the dispatcher wasn't actively trying to discourage him from pursuing. When the dispatcher realizes that Zimmerman's following, his voice audibly changes and he said "Are you following him?" and as soon as Zimmerman replies he snaps "Okay we don't need you to do that."

He's being cordial, he's not giving him the option.

It really bums me out that even a fellow O&A listen can't be honest enough with another O&A listen to admit that the police wouldn't want him to pursue Trayvon. You're being dishonest for the sake of either proving a point or being shitty and either way, it's a huge disappointment.

Sorry man, I guess we're done here if you're going to be like that.

You have to be going so far out of your way to pretend the dispatcher wasn't actively trying to discourage him from pursuing.

It doesn't even matter what the dispatcher suggested so that's a moot point anyway.

It really bums me out that even a fellow O&A listen can't be honest enough with another O&A listen to admit that the police wouldn't want him to pursue Trayvon. You're being dishonest for the sake of either proving a point or being shitty and either way, it's a huge disappointment.

Spare the butthurt. I don't disagree that the police would suggest him not to pursue Trayvon. That doesn't mean what he did was illegal or asking to be assaulted.

It goes against Neighborhood Watch protocols that are pretty much universal. Even giving your really weak point about their complex's custom Neighborhood Watch guidebook the benefit of the doubt, do you really think that their Neighborhood Watch would want to work directly in conflict with the vast majority of Neighborhood Watch program's very key directive of watching and reporting from safety to have elderly members or women leaving the safety of vehicles or their homes to pursue suspects even at a distance?

Answer honestly.

I would love to answer honestly but I couldn't even make sense of that run-on mess of a post.

Bunch of bummers

Do you know what neighborhood watch is? Have you ever lived in a nice community in a shitty area where you pay association fees out the ass to keep your place nice and people from elsewhere just come fuck it up?

Yes. I know what Neighborhood Watch is. I also know that Zimmerman violated a number of Watch protocols.

Google the Neighborhood Watch training manual. There are multiple pdf's available as the first result. It says clearly, you are not to go on patrol with a weapon. It says clearly that you are not to confront or engage someone, you are simply the police's eyes and ears. You see something suspicious, you alert the police officers and you wait at a safe location. it's stated plain as day all over the manual. He was not acting as neighborhood watch, he made himself the neighborhood security guard. He was acting as a vigilante.

If you know anything about neighborhood watch you would know that he was operating outside of their standards and practices by following Trayvon. Neighborhood Watch stresses the safety of the group members, it stresses not taking vigilante action.

the neighborhood watch training manual

Show me the manual for this private apartment complex. He was not employed by any city government.

So you're telling me I can just draw up my own rules about neighborhood watch that would allow me to take the law into my own hands and become a vigilante, and that in turn makes me right?

Are you really willing to go that far into silly just to prove your point on the Internet?

Oh please spare the "vigilante" crap.

By your own admission, Zimmerman was a vigilante.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/vigilante

"a member of a vigilance committee."

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/vigilance

"state or quality of being vigilant; watchfulness:"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/watchfulness

"vigilant or alert; closely observant:"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/neighborhood+watch?s=t

"a neighborhood surveillance program or group in which residents keep watch over one another's houses, patrol the streets, etc., in an attempt to prevent crime."

Spare what now?

Wrong. The common definition of a vigilante is someone who goes around the law to dole out punishment themselves. Think Batman. Your little definition chain that you provided is retarded.

Jimmy says Zimmerman was ABSOLUTLEY WRONG with his profiling, Trayvon turned out not to have a weapon and wasn't out looking to do any crime. 5 minutes later, he says I'm for profiling, I do it, everybody should. If I see someone that looks suspicious I'm going to be on edge.

Profiling is only wrong if it turns out the person you were worried about turned out in the end to not be up to no good. Excellent point Jim.

my apologies sir